William Davis, MD joins us to discuss GLP 1 agonists such as Ozempic, and others

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TalkToMeGuy Greetings everyone, this is a Sound Health Radio Show where we talk about the crossroads of the environment, our health and longevity with Richard Talktomeguy and Sherry Edwards is off working on the Sound Health Portal. I would suggest going to the SoundHealthPortal.com, scrolling down just a bit and clicking on the Watch How button. You'll see a short demo video explaining how to record and submit your first recording. Then go back to SoundHealthPortal.com, scroll down to current active campaigns such as cellular inflammation, stem cells or Parkinson's and choose one that is of interest to you. Click on that campaign and click Free Voice Analysis and the system will walk you through submitting your recording. You'll receive an email with your report back usually in one to two hours.

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If you'd like to leave me a voice message with a question for a guest or a guest idea for a show, you can do that directly from the site and I will be notified. With that, conventional weight loss approaches include reducing caloric intake, GLP-1 agonists and bariatric surgery. While these conventional weight loss strategies may have short term success, most times the weight returns after the dieting stops. These conventional weight loss methods impair health and shortened lifespan. They result in muscle loss and a preferential loss of subcutaneous fat over the more harmful visceral fat, fat surrounding organs. Typically, 25% of weight loss in these conventional weight loss approaches is from loss of muscle mass.

The muscle mass is necessary to keep our metabolic rate and the ability to burn calories at a good rate. William Davis, MD, is a cardiologist and a No. 1 New York Times best-selling author of the Wheat Belly series of books and more recently, SuperGut. Recent human clinical trials that Dr. Davis conducted have revealed that it is possible to lose fat, weight, while preserving muscle, thereby preventing weight regain and enjoying improved body composition. Dr. Davis is also the chief medical officer at Realize Therapeutics Corporation, which he has co-founded to explore the new science of microbiome to improve health and appearance, including products for improving skin and health vitality and as well as body composition. Dr. Davis joins us to discuss the GLP agonists and their effects on health and weight. Welcome, Dr. Davis.

William Davis, MD: Thank you, Richard. Good to be back.

TalkToMeGuy: I was really quite shocked when I went back and looked at some show notes just sort of refresh everything in my mind. And I realized the first time we talked is in 2013.

Was it really? Wow! Yes, exactly. I felt like, really? Wow, man, it is that thing where the old guys are on the part you're going, wow, really? Times just flying by, man. I can't believe it. It's really quite shocking. And now here you are, rabble rousing about this.

I think this is phenomenal that you're doing this. Talking about these GLP-1 agonists and what I call now from when I heard you talk about it, the Ozymbic Face Syndrome. I'm going to be calling it that until people get it figured out because it really is, wow, it's shocking. When I see the results of what it is and I read all your material, it just makes some sense of like, what are people thinking?

That's really where I land. It's like, what are people thinking? It's not a great look. At some point, it's not a great look. So please talk to us about this GLP agonist, Ozymbic.

William Davis, MD: Sure, Richard. So there's a class of drugs called so-called GLP-1 agonist drugs. And these were originally intended to reduce blood sugar in diabetics, type 2 diabetics. But they also observed incidentally that people lost a lot of weight.

So now they're being deployed for losing weight. So these drugs like Ozymbic, as you point out, Mungero, WeGoV, and a bunch of others. So let's say somebody takes one of these drugs at a cost of about $12,000 per year. And let's say this person loses 40 pounds and they're feeling pretty good about themselves. Even though, as you point out, they look typically 10 to 20 years older because their face has lost muscle and subcutaneous fat. Fat just blows the skin. So you may be thinner, but you look older. But if that 40 pounds lost, 25% or about 10 pounds lost is muscle. This is well-established fact.

It's been shown over and over again in clinical trials. So think about that, Richard. 10 pounds of ground beef on your kitchen table. It's a lot of muscle. So you lose 10 pounds of muscle if you lose 40 pounds total. Well, most people can't afford these drugs forever, so they stop the drug. And this person regains 32 to 34 pounds, of which all of it is fat. Now they're more prone to type 2 diabetes, heart disease, dementia, breast cancer, and other conditions than they were at the start. So pharma gets enriched and you end up being less healthy and low self-esteem dissatisfied with the outcome. Yet my colleagues to this day say, oh, these are miraculous breakthroughs and the FDA approved these drugs without any understanding of the long-term outcomes.

TalkToMeGuy It seems like it's leaving people in a sarcopenia-like condition.

William Davis, MD: Yes, exactly right. That's right. So, sarcopenia for your listeners is a situation as we get old. So just by aging, we lose about a third of our muscle, sometimes a lot more.

Some people 50%. And that's a situation called sarcopenia. You've seen these little old ladies and guys with skinny arms and legs. They can't navigate stairs. They have a hard time carrying their grocery bags.

They have a hard time getting in and out of the car. And you're less likely to be independent. You become dependent on the system, on acute facilities to live, like assisted living. And you're more prone to fractures and frailty and other health conditions. And so we do not want to lose muscle. So when you lose all that muscle because you took that drug, it compounds.

It compounds the 30% or more of muscle you lose just by aging. Now the great thing, Richard, is we know of ways. In fact, I discovered a way to stop that effect. Not with the drug so much, but on your own. We have access to ways to preserve or rebuild muscle safely and effectively.

TalkToMeGuy I feel like a drum roll is needed here. Because it's really... I actually, part of the reason I know the word sarcopenia is because 12 years ago, I had about 30 hours of surgery, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The audience doesn't need to hear it again. And since that time, I've had sarcopenia. And I used to have muscle here. I was a chef for 20 years and a bicyclist and a weightlifter. So I lost muscle mass in my arms and I haven't gotten there to return. So as I was studying for the show, I was thinking, oh my God, I might have arms again. That'd be so exciting. So please, yes. Talk about the... I feel like L. Reuteri comes in here. I'm just guessing.

William Davis, MD: Yes, exactly right. So conventional thinking is you must go to the gym for many hours a week. But you know, most of us don't want to do that, don't like to do it.

I certainly do not. And there are a handful of supplements like Hydroxamethylbutyrate and creatine kind. And those things do help a little bit.

But we want big effects. And one of the biggest effects is, as you point out, restoring a microbe that nearly everyone has lost. Lactobacillus roderite. You know, if we looked at the indigenous hunter-gatherer populations in Kenya or Tanzania or the jungles of South America or the Highland jungles of New Guinea, that is hunter-gatherer humans, they all have this microbe, Lactobacillus roderite.

If we were to look at the gastrointestinal microbiome of mammals, wild mammals, like wolves or bear or deer, they all have roderite also. But we've lost it because we've been so wildly overexposed to antibiotics and other factors, like glyphosate and the herbicide roundup and many other factors. We've lost almost everybody has lost Lactobacillus roderite. Well, Lactobacillus roderite is a microbe that takes up residence in your GI tract and sends a signal to your brain to release the hormone oxytocin, the hormone of body composition. It is in charge of how much muscle you retain, how much fat you have in your abdomen, as well as many other facets of health, such as the intensity of love and affection you have for the people close to you, your libido, your sexual drive, muscle density, your capacity to heal, your immune response, and how happy you are. So we restore this microbe and all sorts of wonderful things happen, including an increase in lean muscle mass. This all came to light, especially recently. We did a small human clinical trial. Now, the ladies in my audience say things like this, and I told them what would happen. They said, oh, we don't care about muscle and we don't care about healing or immune response.

We just want better skin. So I thought, what? Oh, fine.

Okay, fine. So I did a small human clinical trial on 25 ladies and we made measures of skin, such things as high resolution skin ultrasound. And we did record a dramatic increase in dermal thickness, 15%, which is more than twice as much as you get, say, with just collagen peptides. So we show a dramatic increase in dermal thickness. It's the dermis, Richard, that determines skin health and appearance.

What we see on the outside is the epidermis of dead cells, but it's the layer just beneath the dermis. That is the principal driver of skin health and appearance. Well, we got a 15% increase in dermal thickness and moisture, and the ladies were thrilled because they lost their crow's feet. They lost their smile lines between the eyes, and some of the other wrinkles started to recede over 90 days, over three months. But the unexpected thing in this preliminary trial was that these ladies lost a huge amount of waste circumference, average of three inches, as much as eight and a half inches. Now, I asked them.

We asked them specifically, Richard. Please don't change your diet. Please don't change your exercise program if you even have one. And so they did this. They just got Rhodoride, and I threw in a few other things. I threw in marine source collagen peptides, hyaluronic acid, and aphazand. These are things, Richard, absent or lacking in the modern life, because we've been told this ridiculous message to cut fat and cholesterol, and most modern people thereby abandon consumption of organ meats, rich in collagen and hyaluronic acid.

And of course, too many people get their food served to them through a drive-through window, or in a clam shell delivered by a food delivery service. These are foods you don't know how it was prepared, often does not have many of the nutrients we want, but specifically relevant to body shape and composition, carotenoids. And the most potent carotene, lutein, zeaxanthin. But the most potent carotenoid of all is astaxanthin. That's the pink or orange color in salmon and lobster and crab.

So we combined these four components, said the ladies, please just get these four components. Don't change your diet. Don't change your exercise. And they lose a huge amount of abdominal fat, but even more, they did not lose much in the way of weight. So consistent with the animal evidence, consistent with my large evidence, we're gaining muscle. I personally, Richard, when I started doing this a number of years back, I gained 13 pounds of muscle over three weeks, and my strength increased by 50%. I was handling weight.

That was handling last in my 20s. And I go to the gym, Rich. I don't know about you. I can't stand going to the gym.

I don't like it. So I go 15 minutes tops once a week to use the machines, get the heck out. And despite that minimal effort, I gained 13 pounds of muscle, strength increased. So I think we have stumbled by accident. That's the great thing about this, Richard. This was an accident. I did not know that people would specifically lose abdominal fat and regain lost muscle.

TalkToMeGuy Well, I think the, once again, I wish I had a laugh track sound effect, because the thing is that, as you said, the women, and this is no derogatory comment at all. The trial was with women. We're all so thrilled at the idea of their skin improving. That was, I think, really their preliminary, their immediate thing was, you're going to make my skin look more youthful and my crows feet are going to go away. I'm in.

William Davis, MD: Well, you know, great thing also is that, so it's the opposite. Richard, it's the opposite of this so-called ozempic face phenomenon. You take a G to an act, you look older. We do this thing. We preserve youthful muscle. We lose abdominal fat. And these ladies, not uncommonly, look 10 years younger, 20 years younger with loss of wrinkles. There's also a loss of redness and blemishes and protection from sun injury. Skin's very susceptible to sun injury.

And so we're seeing the exact, now here's a tempting question. I'm not a friend of pharma nor are you, I know that. But what if we took these people who are taking these GOP on agonists and said, hey, do these things that we're talking about alongside concurrently, could we block the loss? Because it's loss of muscle that causes weight regain. So what if we did these things concurrently? Could we block the muscle loss effect and give that person who spent $12,000 to lose 40 pounds, can we give this person a way to get off the drugs safely without becoming a type 2 diabetic?

Or increasing their risk for cognitive impairment and dementia and heart disease. So we're looking for a partner in that world who wants to, because we don't have the kind of budget that pharma does. Hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars to do these things. So we'd like to see if we can do partner with more of those companies, because it may be a way out. Because I predict, Richard, that when people see just how much their health is destroyed by GOP and agonists, there's going to be a whole flood of class action suits against these companies, both pharma and telehealth companies dispensing them in clinics. Well, what if we have a way that allows that that particular advantage of the benefit to these drugs and not have to be exposed long term decline or downturn in health?

TalkToMeGuy And what if they do you think that it's, I mean, you've had, I imagine you've had people that have done something like azambic and then have done your formula and seen positive benefit.

Once they're in that sort of what I call the sarcopenia cycle, do you feel that this formula will take them out of that because it's helping the body rebuild muscle mass and it's helping the body become balanced in the form that it wants to be in?

William Davis, MD: You know, Richard, this is so preliminary that we have not yet had a chance beyond a few anecdotes to really assess this formally. And that's why we really need to do this formally.

You don't want me to take my word for it. I think theoretically it makes sense. I don't know if we'll completely block the loss of muscle and thereby weight regain or if it was simply blunt it. But if we could find a way to at least start that conversation, find a partner to conduct that clinical trial. But, you know, even outside the world of GF1 agonists, we have stumbled on a way to preserve useful shape and body composition. So throw these ideas, that is the restoration of this lost microbe, lack of the silica rotari, restoration of factors missing from your modern life, collagen, hyaluronic acid. By the way, Richard, hyaluronic acid is so interesting. It's a fiber.

Now think about that. It's a fiber that does not come from plants. Most fibers come from plants. Hyaluronic acid is a fiber that comes from animals, mostly brain, skin, and tongue. So when we've abandoned organ meats, we've also abandoned largely the intake of hyaluronic acid. And hyaluronic acid is wonderful for skin. A lot of ladies know about applying topical hyaluronic acid as a serum around their eyes, say, and they lose some of the crow's feet. And then of course the hyaluronic acid washes off at night with their skin routine. By asking ladies, okay, you apply around your eyes, what did that hyaluronic acid serum do for the skin on your neck or abdomen or thighs?

Nothing, of course, because it's topical and local. So let's take hyaluronic acid orally. It acts as a fiber. It goes to the skin where it causes retention of water. It's extremely potent at retaining water, not like edema, but youthful moisture in the dermal layer of the skin. It also increases lubricating fluid in your joints, like knees and hips, the synovial fluid.

So it benefits joint health and it stimulates regrowth of cartilage you may have been losing in your joint cartilage. And it's a fiber and it nourishes and blooms some of the most beneficial species in your gastrointestinal microbiome. These are species like fecalobacterium or acromance. That produce butyric acid or butyrate and that in turn. So hyaluronic acid blooms these beneficial microbes in the GI tract that in turn produce butyric acid. And the butyric acid, in addition to lowering blood pressure, lowering blood sugar, reducing insulin resistance, facilitating weight loss, also goes to the skin where it acidifies butyric acid acidifies the skin. Healthy skin is acidic. Unhealthy skin is much less acidic. There's about a tenfold difference in acidity between healthy and non-healthy skin. So some would say psoriasis or seborrhea or acne or rosacea. We have a pH of about 5.5 whereas healthy skin has a pH about 4.5. pH scales, lagerithmic, that's a tenfold difference. So getting hyaluronic acid for a long list of reasons, Richard, restores youthful healthy skin with reduced blemishes, moisture, thicker, smoother.

TalkToMeGuy And I'm going to pause for a moment and jump back and ask, how did your... This is not a derogatory crime line. That may sound like it. You're a cardiologist. How did Elruderai come into your view, your life? Did you always have an interest in gut health or was it something that occurred? Elruderai sort of like lit up for you and it led you to, I think probably in the early days of wheat, belly and everything.

It's somewhere popped up in there. Where did Elruderai come into your life and sort of opened your whole mind to this idea of, wow, we could maybe have a different approach to what we're doing?

William Davis, MD: Well, it was all part of an evolution in my thinking, Richard, that I began many years ago. I began to reject this idea of, for instance, opening people's arteries with stents and bypass surgery or giving people statin cholesterol drugs to reduce cholesterol, a useless exercise.

So I started to ask tougher questions. And one of the things I asked is, what's the role of oxytocin? Oxytocin is regarded by most as being nothing more than the hormone that surges when you hug your child or you pet your dog. Well, that's true for a few seconds, but actually it's proven to be, oxytocin is proven to be the hormone of body composition. And the first illustration of this was from a series of really creepy Frankenstein-like experiments conducted by a scientist named Dr. Irene Conboy.

And she was at Stanford, I think, and at Harvard. What was really crazy, what they did was they took an old rat and then cloned it. So now you have a young rat that's immunologically and genetically identical. And then she and her team connected their circulatory systems, their blood, and they watched the old rat become young. Creepy, right? And then they asked, what's the mediator?

What factors are being transacted between young and old that gives the old mouse, and by the way, the young mouse gets old too. So it goes both ways. They narrowed it down. This is a work in progress, but the first fact they identified was oxytocin. And then there was a series of unrelated experiments at MIT, Massachusetts Institute of Health, where they want to take advantage of the anti-cancer effects of Rheuterite. So we know that Rheuterite is a very potent anti-cancer microbe, including, by the way, a marked reduction in colonic polyps. And so they started a series of experiments, but they noticed oddly that when the mice were given Rheuterite, they developed what they called rich and luxuriant fur within a week. So they explored this fur that they shaved the hair off these mice, and their hair grew back half usual time. They inflicted skin wounds. The wounds healed in half normal time.

They saw a 300% increase in testosterone, a 400% increase in growth hormone. They watched old mice age, but never showed signs of aging. Old mice stayed young. And so I got the same microbe this group was playing with in mice. The crazy thing was this microbe was commercially available. It comes from Sweden, a company called Biogia. But these tablets were made from infants, and this company had established through the clinical trials that restoration of Rheuterite in infants reduced regurgitation of breast milk and formula, and accelerated recovery from diarrhea after.

Okay, important, but not that interesting. So I started to get this microbe, and because the dose was so small, I fermented it using my method of prolonged fermentation. Because as you recall, Richard, microbes don't have sex. There's no mommy and daddy microbes, right?

They just reproduce themselves. One becomes two, two becomes four. So I allowed this microbe to double 12 times. Rheuterite doubles every three hours at human body temperature. So we double it 12 times. We counted it using a method called flow cytometry, and we get around 300 billion. So we're increasing the original number a thousand fold. And then I started talking about this.

We're all making this yogurt, as you know. And lo and behold, all the phenomena seen in mice, this often doesn't happen. But in this case, all the phenomena seen in mice are being mirrored in humans. Increase social behavior, increase sexual activity and libido, smoother skin, acceleration of healing, amplification of the immune response, rise in tests, and so forth.

And this is the last one. Preservation of youthfulness. We're seeing it in the face. We're seeing it in the musculature.

We're seeing people how they walk, how they climb stairs. And so I stumbled on this series from preliminary work done by Rena Conboy and the MIT group. And now we're seeing it play out in humans.

TalkToMeGuy And is there still work being done with the anti-cancer aspect of the albotorite? Is it being used in the world?

William Davis, MD: Yeah, because the albotorite has such potent anti-cancer effects. It's probably going to be a major factor in inhibiting colon cancer. Well, think about that, Richard. So almost everybody's lost albotorite and its anti-cancer effects. So colon cancer, polyps.

There hasn't been a lot of exploration outside of that kind of cancer. But albotorite is probably one of the most potent microbes. That, by the way, is reflective of what's going on in the general microbiome world. And that is a lot of cancer can be blamed on the microbiome. For instance, unrelated, different issue, but there's a microbe in your mouth, in our mouths, called fusibacterium nucleotum.

I don't know if you love these names. But this microbe proliferates, especially if you have bleeding gums or gingivitis or periodontitis. Well, fusibacterium has the capacity to enter your bloodstreams when you floss or brush any kind of microtromet to the mouth.

Some of that fusibacterium gains access to your bloodstream, and then it can implant itself in your colon where the evidence is good. It is a major driver of colon cancer. In other words, colon cancer, in many instances, gets its start in the mouth. So your gastroenterologist is interested in doing colonoscopies, kajing, kajing, kajing, but fails to talk about your oral microbiome and dental hygiene and the presence of fusibacterium. So this is going to change the entire approach to colon cancer prevention.

TalkToMeGuy Wow. And is this, I'll put air quotes around common knowledge. Is this something that's discussed in the medical industry in the dental world or any of those arenas?

William Davis, MD: As you know, Richard, this is going to sound terribly cynical, but most physician education is provided by industry. The second sale, you're up in a mini skirt in your office promising free dinner and a trip, all expense paid trip to Orlando. Sadly, most physicians, after their training is completed, really don't recognize the science very much. Now, there's not a serious effort.

I'm generalizing, of course. And so a lot of this kind of breakthrough brand new stuff in science, especially in the microbiome. The microbiome is kind of complicated, right? So a cardiologist, my colleagues or a endocrinologist or a pulmonologist may say, that's not part of my training in education.

I don't really need to know that stuff. What they're saying, they recognize is everybody needs to be at least somewhat acquainted with the issues of the microbiome. Because, for instance, if colon cancer gets a start in the mouth, the dentist becomes a critical player in health. Another example, by the way, of the impact of oral health, the oral microbiome being second only to the colon in the density of microbes. There's a microbe called porphyrimonus that originates in the mouth and goes to the brain and is recovered in large numbers in people with dementia when they're dead after they pass. So there's a growing appreciation that dementia is a polymicrobial disease. There are other causes, of course, but it looks as if many microbes, both bacteria and fungal, play a role in the development of all sorts of neurocognitive disorders.

TalkToMeGuy You know, in a curiously weird way, it kind of makes sense, having talked to you a lot and spent a lot of time looking at microbiome health and shows with Stephanie Sinef about glyphosate. She's an MIT researcher who wrote the book on not the gift that keeps on giving, but some titles similar to that about glyphosate, how it's what a toxin it is and how it's just everywhere. And so it makes sense that as we destroy the microbiome and we eat bad grains, we eat GMO grains or grains period, that we're going to stress out the microbiome and nobody seems to be paying attention to it except for you, this cardiologist. And I mean that in the best of ways. It's always so shocking and great.

William Davis, MD: Excellent point, Richard, about the glyphosate that you and Stephanie Sinef are talking about. While we don't have human evidence, because no one, if I said to you, hey Richard, I'm going to give you a pill. And it could be glyphosate, it could be placebo.

We want to see if it ruins your health. You say get lost. We don't have that kind of evidence. We probably will never have it. But we do know. We do know that glyphosate, as you may know, is not just an herbicide. It's also an antibiotic. But it's a kind of antibiotic that tends to kill beneficial microbes like lactobacillus rhodorhyne and is ineffective in killing fecal microbes like E. coli or salmonella or Campylo-packed bacteria. Those are the unhealthy species that proliferate when you have a disrupted gastrointestinal microbiome. So glyphosate essentially selects for unhealthy microbes.

TalkToMeGuy Wow. And now they're using it as a defoliant so that when they go to harvest, let's say wheat or some other grain, they spray it right away or even corn. They spray it right before harvest because it's a defoliant so that they've freshly sprayed it right before they harvest it for us. Yes.

William Davis, MD: Yes. That's horrible, horrible practice exposing us to this potent antibiotic.

TalkToMeGuy Yeah. No wonder we're thinking that ozympic face is maybe good. I don't know. That's the wrong thing. I mean, just it all blows my mind about the glyphosate thing. It just keeps happening. It's like, it's okay. Mexico won't take our corn.

Mexico will no longer take our corn because they don't want GMO sprayed glyphosate for and it will not all the truth in the US and Mexico because they're like, no, corn is important to us. It's just a bizarre and amazing thing.

William Davis, MD: You know, one of the great things about rebuilding muscle that you've lost is people, a lot of the ladies especially will say things like this. Well, I don't want to go to the gym six hours a week. I don't want to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Well, don't worry.

You won't. Even if it did go to the gym six hours, you wouldn't look like that. But what we're talking about is not so much that like a body builder type body shape. We're talking about restoration of the muscle you had when you were 25. Because if you're losing all that muscle, it was accelerated by doing something awful like a GLP one agonist drug or any other method.

As you point out in the beginning, you're opening notes. The GLP agonist, while it has some new effects, is really not that much different than cutting calories. We could call it move more, eat less. We could call it bariatric surgery, lap band. These are all variations in the same theme, cutting calories.

And we know, this surprised a lot of my physician colleagues, we know with good confidence, good evidence. When you cut calories, regardless of the method, you will lose muscle. And muscle is the principle determinant of your metabolic rate, that is the rate at which you burn energy.

There was a recent very enlightening study at the NIH, National Institutes of Health. They took people who are very big. BMIs are 50, 50. Obesity is 30 or greater. These people are 50. So these are the super obese people. They're putting on a low calorie diet.

And I give these people credit. Over six months, they lost 127 pounds. Amazing, right?

Wow, that's amazing. Of which 18% was muscle. And their metabolic rate plummeted. And they calculated how many calories these people could eat to block weight loss, 400 calories per day.

Wow. In other words, since a starvation diet was required, and even worse, they're hungrier even after they regain the weight. So they're hungrier because they lost the weight. They maintain a low calorie input. They regain all the weight.

And here's the perverse thing about that. Because there's a distortion of appetite hormones, like grailin and others. You're actually hungrier now after having regained the weight than you were at the start. So anybody who's been through cycles of a yo-yo diet and knows becomes tougher and tougher and tougher. Because you've lost muscle with each cycle, and you've caused an increase in appetite hormones with each time. So the conventional method you can see, is an absolute form of disaster.

TalkToMeGuy Well, everybody that I know, and I know a number of people who either had lap band or some sort of severe need for weight loss, have just had the experience exactly as you're talking. Where they do it, they look great, they feel great, well they feel great air quotes. And then a year or two later, they're back to where they started. Only probably now, because of the weight loss of muscle mass, they're even in worse shape because they're not able to burn as much fat. They're exactly in the cycle that you're talking about. It's just, it's horrific to watch.

William Davis, MD: You know, the TV show, The Biggest Loser, provided some fodder for all this. So once again, the NIH recruited a bunch of people who graduated from that TV show on the eighth season. And these are people who lost 50 pounds, 70 pounds, 130 pounds by reducing calories, often drastically, and up to six hours a day of strength training and aerobic active extreme efforts. And that's why you see the people on these shows breaking down, having nervous breakdowns and sobbing because they're miserable. It's a miserable process. So they have to dog these poor people, but they succeed in losing weight.

They leave feeling great. And as you point out, in the next year or so, they regain all the weight. So this NIH group formally assessed their metabolic rate and found that it had dropped by 27 percent. Now, the study only lasted six years after they finished the TV program. And even at six years, it was still present. They stopped the study.

So it's at least six years. The reduction in metabolic rate occurs. And this is what responsible for all that weight regain. And these people maintain a low calorie diet and an exercise program, yet they regained all the weight. So they got to give them credit for the dedication they had, but you can see the whole thing, the whole concept is wrong and ensures your failure.

Well, that's why I encourage people to be smarter. Let's not cut calories in any form. Never cut calories.

Maybe for a day or two, that's about it. Never cut cows for a long period, meaning no GLP-1 agonists, no move more, eat less, no bariatric procedures. Like eat all you want. Never limit calories. Never limit fat. But get rid of things that stimulate appetite, like glide and derive opioid peptides that come from wheat and related grains. When you eat more fat, like butter and olive oil and the fat on your pork, you're satiated and you're exasperated for extended periods.

And an even better richard. You restore roti-ri, thereby oxytocin. One of the effects of oxytocin, I didn't mention, is it suppresses your desire to snack. You walk right past that piece of cheese cake and you don't give a crap. So it suppresses so-called hedonic eating. Now put all those three things together. You are in magnificent control over appetite impulse and you're rebuilding muscle. And you're happier.

TalkToMeGuy And you're happier. Because of the oxytocin levels. You're actually able to have a conversation with somebody you might not agree with about some things. Excellent. I'll just skip along. I'll just skip along past what that could be. But there could be things you don't want to talk with people about. And you can actually have a dialogue and still disagree. What a radical idea. I love that.

William Davis, MD: That's my favorite part of this whole conversation. That is the emotional and social benefits of restoring Reuteri and thereby oxytocin. The increase in the intensity of love and affection for the people close to you. The acceptance of other people's opinions. The increased generosity. The reduction in social isolation. Maybe even a reduction in divorce.

Who knows, right? One thing I was not aware of until the last few years ago is that the psychology community has been formally tracking narcissistic behavior since 1963. And they've seen that narcissistic behavior has skyrocketed over those 60-some years. So in 1963, true or false, I am a very important person in this world. In 1963, 13% of people, yes I am.

In our time, 83%. Now there may be other factors involved here like social media and child-growing practices. But here's something we can do something about. Restore a microbe and the hormone of love and empathy and embrace your fellow human beings and accept them for what they are. Introduce yourself to strangers in line for coffee at Starbucks.

TalkToMeGuy Yeah, that's radical. Especially for people who are needing caffeine. They're not chatty at all. I'm talking to a microphone for a living and so I talk to everybody always. I'm just a chatty guy. I'm not chatty, but I'm definitely conversational.

And there are a lot of times where you can see that sort of glow in the eyes like, I cannot talk to you yet. All right, I'm sorry. But I think it's a radical idea. This is back to when COVID was happening and I think it's a radical idea.

That's a whole other conversation we're not getting into. But I was suggesting, look, couldn't we just give kids a vitamin C packet twice a day at school? What about that idea? Now I'm going to jump to what if we just gave them, you know, in their school lunches.

I'm old enough that I actually had lunches at school. And what if you just got a little L-rhodoride in there? Just a little every day to benefit everybody. Everybody might be happier. Wow! That could be a world revolution if it was just a notch up on the happier scale.

William Davis, MD: Richard, I think you are absolutely right. Sure, there's a lot more we could do, but here's something that we know we can do. We can restore this microblow. Now, one thing I don't know how to do, though. So if your mom gave you Lactobacillus rhodoride as you passed through the birth canal at birth, or during breastfeeding or contact as an infant, you would have that microbe for a lifetime. If you never got exposed to antibiotics and glyphosate, other factors.

When we restore a rhodoride, let's say through yogurt or probiotic caps or whatever means, you have it for maybe 10 days. Why? Why the difference? Well, I think it's because when you replace micro, microbe should like us. They live in communities and they have friends and neighbors and coworkers, and we don't know what the friends of rhodoride look like. But I think in future we'll say something like this. Okay, when you replace rhodoride, replace it with these five other microbes that are part of its supportive community.

And it will take up residence for the rest of your life, barring, once again, exposure to antibiotics and other factors. But right now we don't know how to do that. So what we do is we restore it, but you keep on restoring it until we figure this out.

TalkToMeGuy The worst thing that happens to me is I make your yogurt and I have to eat yogurt every day for the rest of my life. Hey, I love great yogurt. What's not to like? I'll eat great yogurt every day and try to get my friends to eat great yogurt.

William Davis, MD: Have we talked about the SIBO yogurt?

TalkToMeGuy No, no. SIBO is a whole other conversation I have. So yes, please do.

William Davis, MD: So a lot of people are not aware that about half the US population, about 150, 160 million Americans, have allowed fecal microbes like E. coli and salmonella to over proliferate in the colon where they're supposed to be, but then ascend into the 24 feet of small intestine. This is called small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

And that's happened because of all those exposures we talked about, antibiotics, glyphosate, etc., that have killed off beneficial microbes. That allows those fecal microbes to ascend into the 24 feet of small intestine. Well, the small intestine is very permeable.

That's where we absorb nutrients. But when fecal microbes take up residence there, they live and die very rapidly. Microbes have a lifetime of about three hours, just a few hours, where they die rapidly and release their toxic components. One of them is called endotoxin. And that endotoxin enters the bloodstream. That process is called endotoxinium. It can show up. That process can show up as migraine headaches, depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, Parkinson's disease.

It can show up as heart disease, coronary disease, atrial fibrillation, skin disease like rosacea or psoriasis or eczema, or bone and joint pains like fibromyalgia, rheumatoid. We have to reconsider virtually all human health in light of the contribution of the microbiome with this new appreciation of small intestinal bacterial overgrowth and endotoxinia. Well, how do you get rid of this? If you go to the conventional gastroenterologist, if he even knows what it is, and most of the time they will not, but even if he or she does know, they'll hand you a prescription for Zyphaxin. It's an antibiotic. We know that your antibiotic got here. Got us here. Do we want another antibiotic?

And this excess rate of this antibiotic is about 55 to 60%. So I asked some different questions. I asked these questions.

Now, wait a minute. If you just took a conventional off-the-shelf probiotic, will this process seabed go away? It will not. It might reduce bloating and diarrhea a little bit, transiently, but won't get rid of it.

So I asked these questions. What if we chose microbes that are known to colonize the small intestine? Most microbes don't do that. That is healthy microbes. What if we chose microbes that produce what are called bacteriocins? These are natural antibiotics that kill off fecal microbes.

So I chose three. A strain of lactobacillus L Reuteri , our friend. A cousin, lactobacillus gasii. And another microbe, bacillus coagulants.

These are microbes that live in the small intestine, unusual, and produce bacteria. So far, anecdotally, in 50 people who have done this, 90% have converted to negative. There is a way to test for SIBO with a device. And so far, it has been more successful than even the antibiotic. We will plan a formal clinical trial to validate this. But if the solution to getting rid of this huge problem for health involves something drastic, like surgical removal of a small intestine, well, we better be damn confident this is really necessary. But what if the solution is something that looks and smells like yogurt that you make in your kitchen and has no side effects, only side benefits, like smoother skin and restoration of muscle and better social attitudes? Well, I don't think you have to be quite so confident.

In fact, I would encourage people just to make this yogurt, even if they don't have SIBO, because what we're really doing is restoring keystone, a very foundational microbes that bring back order and health to your microbiome.

TalkToMeGuy I think it's, you know, like I said, you're a cardiologist. And I'm not. Just that you're here now still blows me away. That you're down to this, you know, it's simple only because you've been doing it for the past few years. And at least since when I started talking to you in 2013, you're saying that we could take these three microbes, get them into our systems and possibly clear people of SIBO, which is mind blowing because there's so much SIBO imbalance that it's just, wow, we could possibly have benefit just from that. And with no real harm, as you said, the side effects, there's actually Andy Weil, Andrew Weil, that taught me there are no such things as side effects. He just says they're all effects.

And I kind of, I like that. And so the other effects are your skin might look meridiant. You might be happier. You might be kinder. You might be more generous. You might feel better. Your gut isn't going to be cranky all the time. I, you know, all that. It's like, wow, that's some effects that I want.

William Davis, MD: You know, Richard, I hear that if we rely on John Q. Primary Care on the corner or the neighborhood gastroenterologist, you'll hear none of this. It takes at least a generation, I think more like two generations or something as complex as this. But it's important for your listeners to know you don't have to wait for your doctor to become educated. You know, if you go to take your car to the auto repair shop, you really need to educate the mechanic. He should know what to do. But in healthcare, the doctors often, though they pose as experts, are not.

William Davis, MD: All they have are pharmaceuticals and procedures, medical procedures, but they don't have an understanding of basic health involving nutrition, supplements lacking in modern life, microbiome. And so it becomes really our job, you, me and your listeners to take the reins and understand these things. And the good thing is these are not that difficult. Once you get there, it's a little bit scary at first. And there's a few dollars, but not a lot to spend. And you can have magnificent control over multiple facets of health. And you can feel better.

TalkToMeGuy There are very few people I know. And it's not just because of the world, I mean, I mean, I know a lot of regular people. And there are very few of them that get up every day and go, I feel great. There's always an ache.

There's a space, especially as we get older. You know, there's more achy, there's more cranky, there's more, you know, and especially because you have a lean towards sarcopenia, because you've been on too many antibiotics and too much weight loss, that, you know, there's more crankiness, there's more cranky joints, there's more cartilage issues, there's all sorts of stuff. So the worst possible scenario, if we take a formula like this one with a ruder eye and gastro, we're going to feel better. Wow! Feel better. That alone could sell millions. Feel better. Dot, dot, dot.

William Davis, MD: And you know, there's other benefits we haven't even talked about. It seems almost too good to be true. But what we're really doing is we're not treating things. It's a concept I ask people to get away from. That is, in the conventional world, you have a high blood sugar. We're going to treat you to reduce that blood sugar.

But you never got at the cause of that high blood sugar. And by the way, those causes are easy to address. Likewise, heart disease, coronary disease. It's easy to address the causes and get rid of your risk for cardiovascular disease, but it should not involve cholesterol, should not involve statin cholesterol drugs.

It involves nutrition and addressing the factors that cause heart. The whole other conversation, of course. But people really do. We're reaching a time where people have extraordinary control over the health. But the sad fact is, the last person you ask to understand this is the doctor. It shouldn't be that way, but it is that way.

TalkToMeGuy But it is that way. But then we have rebels like you who are out there pounding the pulpit and getting us educated and making so far in the small study that you've done, women extraordinarily happy about their skin.

And I lost three inches of my waist. I don't care about that. My skin is fabulous. You know, it's, wow, what a win, win, win. Everybody's happy. And they're happier. Yes, yes.

William Davis, MD: You know, one of the things that concerns a lot of us is even prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, there was a sharp increase in suicide. Between 2005 and 2015, there was a 35% increase in suicide, which is huge.

And of course, many more attempted suicides. And so is the restoration of Roterite, for instance, and thereby a boost in oxytocin? Is that part of the solution? I think it is. It has yet to be proven. It's tough thing to prove in that world.

How do you prove prevention of suicide? Right? The easiest thing to do. Yeah. Or the Siebel Yogurt, because we know that that endotoxemia is a major driver of suicidal thoughts and depression. You know, there's a German group.

I give them credit. They had the nerve to take healthy, non-depressed volunteers and inject them in the blood with that endotoxin and gave them endotoxemia, which is really scary because if you miscalculate the dose even a little bit, you can kill somebody. It's a poison. So they inject this toxic endotoxin into the bloodstream of these non-depressed people. And within three hours, they were clinically depressed.

And when they performed MRI of their brains during depression, they showed all the MRI hallmarks of depression, arguing that Siebel and endotoxin is a major driver of suicide and depression. Wow.

TalkToMeGuy Yeah. I don't see a drug rep walking around talking about this. That's right. I just don't. There was a woman, Stephanie Olson. That's not quite right, but it's close. And she had been a drug rep for years and a successful one. Really good at what she did.

Really knew. And she talked about, in the book she wrote, she talked about how she was really trained to be, I would call it, spylight characteristics, meaning how to really get herself into the doctor's life in the sense of remembering the kid's birthdays, and the anniversaries, and the gift, and bringing special things to the kids, and really staying, really getting a mesh into their life so that when they came in and she trained other drug reps, they were really more as much a family friend as they were a drug rep. So that that further enhanced the, you know, Doc, we have this new thing, and I think you'd really like it.

You should try it. Boom. Well, she wrote this book, you know, a tell-all book about how that worked in the world of drugs, wrote the book and then left the country.

And is still living somewhere else happily. But it was an amazing story to hear how she really, how in her world, not only of doing it for, I think she did it for almost 15 years, how she was the resource for the doctor for information, that she was really educated of the doctor as a drug rep. That was where the doctors were getting their education, partially because of how she was trained and how she trained other drug reps to really get into that sort of familial like feeling. So you were a trusted resource. But I mean, it's just, it's a whole spooky game of, and that's why she left the country because she knew what was, and badly for her, because of what she was saying.

William Davis, MD: And it's, it is so true because I lived through it. You know, when I finished my training and began practice, I grew up as a very poor kid. So when I finally was making money in practice and good looking, very persuasive, charming reps would come to you with promises of gifts and being your friend. At first I took it, hooked my finger until I started to realize this is not right, but you're right, they're very good at it.

TalkToMeGuy In one of my restaurants that I was a chef at, we, it was a small bistro in Carmel, and a drug rep would come in and buy the restaurants for the evening, meaning about 35 tables, 35 seats, and buy the restaurant for the evening so that they could have doctors come in and they could wine and dine them and leave them with gold pens and all sorts of, you know, tea times at Pebble Beach. And I mean, it was just, it was an amazing machine to watch how in the doctor's left they were just slightly buzzed, perhaps on the alcohol and the dine and the charm of the, and the food was lovely. And it was the magical evening, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but it was really about the drugs.

It was to get them, you know, get them those tea times at Pebble Beach so that they'd even feel more inclined to like, oh yes, this is a wonderful drug. I had a great time. I have nothing but positive thoughts about it. There was no real education about anything other than we're having a lovely time and the drug reps are paying for this.

William Davis, MD: It's amazing. Exactly right. That's exactly how it works. And you know, it's even worse when you're in a procedure specialty, like cardiology or cardiothoracic surgery or general surgery, or one of the specialties where you require a lot of equipment, imaging equipment, catheters, trocars, cutting devices, drills, all that kind of stuff. Well, that's even bigger than the pharmaceutical industry, the medical device industry, and they're extremely well funded.

And they really wind and dine, but that they're exactly right. It's not about education. It's about marketing. It's cleverly disguised marketing. And that is how most physicians are educated.

And so while in parallel to all this, you and I are talking about wonderfully empowering things in nutrition and the microbiome and the doctor doesn't, it's not even on his radar. Yeah. Yeah.

TalkToMeGuy It's really shocking. I know when we first started talking way back at the wheat belly days, I had already been anti wheat because I knew too much about the sprays and just all the, even back then, and how the, you know, wheat itself is a mess because of what we've done to it. And I'd already been in that world of, you know, no wheat, high protein, a lot of that stuff, but it was really amazing to me how, you know, here we are. You know, you started in 2013 talking about this and now we're at a point, you're at a point where people can make yogurt and get amazing benefits from making their own yogurt. Or with the, you know, that the women have taken as a trial study and find the crow's feet going away. And for them, the other fact is, my God, I lost three inches of my waist. I didn't even try to do that. I mean, how great is that? That's a great hook right there. That's what you should be selling the product as. Intentionally lose three inches of weight. Because, wow.

William Davis, MD: I think it's, it's the start of a new age, Richard, where you don't need your doctor to, you don't have to ask your doctor, Hey, doc, should I make lactobacillus, Roto-Rite yogurt? Of course the doctors I have no idea you're talking about. Did you consult Dr. Google again? I can't.

Yeah. So you don't need the doctor's approval. You don't need the doctor's approval to have magnificent musculature, slenderness, metabolic health, protection from dementia and heart disease and diabetes.

Cause the doctor doesn't know the doctor. If you have pre-diabetes, he's got his prescription pad ready for a prescription for metformin or biota or heaven for insulin. Insulin is an extremely harmful way to control your blood sugar cause it causes explosive weight loss and accelerates the damage to your organs.

Yet the American Diabetes Association will tell people it's not a loss. It's not a bad thing going into it. It's a good thing.

That's ridiculous. So this is the world we're up against, Richard. And so it's, that's why I applaud people like you who are trying to broadcast these messages because it's not coming from major media, by the way, it's coming from those of us who are unafraid and just want to speak the truth. Cause the truth is not coming through the media anymore, the major media, nor is it coming from my, from my colleagues. Yeah.

TalkToMeGuy And we only have a couple of minutes. Well, we have a week and go long if this happens, that I wanted to ask you about, this is not exactly in this, it's in the gut category.

It's not in the, you know, cross-seat going away. But I've heard you talk about fungus, fungals can be a real issue or fungus can be a real issue in the gut. And I heard you talk about, well, I'm already, and I'm also in the wayback machine, master herbalist, and I heard you talking about berberine and essential oils for some bit of fungal management in the gut. Cause I've, well, I did research with a Ryan trust who was the first, one of the first doctors to write about fungal imbalance in the gut. And as people are cleaning up their gut and as you're adding root or I, and these other microbes, can fungus be bumped out? Or is, or do you have to do other things such as the berberine or these essential oils to get fungus back into balance?

William Davis, MD: You know, fungal overgrowth, whether it's in the colon or has ascended like SIBO into the 24 feet of small belt is a really tough problem to deal with. And we don't have the full tools nor the information that we have with bacterial overgrowth. So for instance, there's a consumer device called the error device, A-I-R-E. And I have no relationship with them. The company's called food marble and a PhD engineer invented this device to measure hydrogen gas in the breath. And it serves as a, essentially a mapping device to tell you where bacteria are living, are they living where they're supposed to be living in the colon? Or are they living in the stomach and do a dynamic, a junim where they don't belong, that's SIBO. So for SIBO, for bacterial overgrowth, we're getting better and better tools. Unfortunately, the same thing has not yet happened with fungal overgrowth, but it's becoming clear that part of, if you allow fungi like candidate albicans, candidate glibata, malassezia, if we allow those fungal species to proliferate, it's because you lost the suppressive effects of bacteria. So SIBO and SIFO go hand, sorry, small intestinal fungal overgrowth, go hand in hand. But unfortunately, the only way I identify that with confidence is with the process.

It has problems. For now, this is a what testing, is rectal test, which is the last, you know, interstellar, your test and testal tract. And it doesn't really necessarily reflect what's going on in the ascending colon or transverse colon or in the alium or other parts of small intestine.

So we have to accept that stool testing is rectal testing. I have a, his name is Dr. Raul Cannell. He's a 40 year academic microbiologist and he did something remarkable. He took the entire bowel movement that people would have at homogenize and mixed it and then studied it and compared it to the rectal testing.

And he found there was very overlap. So clearly we did so much more we have yet to learn and how to understand what's going on in the microbiome. But with fungal overgrowth, the only tool we have is to look at your stool sample for an excess of these fungal species. If you have them, part of the solution has to be rebuilding the bacterial microbiome and rotari, gas, or I can be part of that. By the way, one thing I haven't mentioned is the power of fermented foods like kimchi and fear and kombucha and veggies you ferment on your kitchen counter. Extremely powerful and a very powerful way to help rebuild your microbiome.

And by the way, for the ladies listening, get better skin health too. Once again, but fungal overgrowth once becomes established, Richard is really persistent. Uh, but it looks a lot of the symptoms are the same as bacterial overgrowth, bloating diarrhea. The one thing that seems to distinguish fungal overgrowth is this crazy sugar cravings. Mike, the fungi love sugar and they somehow tell your brain to eat sugar, which is amazing when you think about it. Somehow fungi have evolved in the human body and they, no one's identified the metabolite yet.

They somehow produce metabolite that tells you go eat some candy or go have some Rocky road ice cream. But as you point out, what we do for fungal overgrowth is we resort to some anti-fungal factors like berberine's a really good one. Um, some of the food sourced essential oils. I urge anybody who wants to do this to know, learn more about these things because like the essential oils can be very caustic, very toxic. Unless used properly, you want to use them safely or else I can have harmful effects.

So for instance, we might get oil of oregano or cinnamon or clove oil, take a couple of drops and dilute them in say a tablespoon of avocado or, or olive oil and do it that way. Uh, it takes longer also ends up the die off effect as you kill them can cause panic attacks, anxiety. Um, so people cut quite scared. So you want to, you want to start this process with knowledge and know how to cut back on some of the upfront die off symptoms, which you can do by cutting back into dose, you can also take something like activated charcoal and it binds up some of the toxins. So there's a lot to know if someone embarks on that routine. So I urge them to learn, learn more about it first. One of the sources would be my super gut book.

TalkToMeGuy And they, the good news, I think with the doing the El Rudoraya yogurt or the formula encapsulated formula is that you're going to have a healthy microbiome. So as you're fighting off the fungus overgrowth, I think the gut is going to be more inclined to want to cooperate with you. Exactly.

William Davis, MD: Yes. Absolutely. You know, one thing I urge people, people hear this and they say, oh, I listened to Richard's show. It's just too complicated. I can't be bothered. I got other things in my plate, right?

I got a mortgage to pay. Yeah. Well, what's, what's the price we pay? Richard, what's the price we pay if we don't take action to address, say the SIBO that's extremely common, the fungal overgrowth also very common. What if we just say, ah, heck with it, I'm just going to, I'll deal with some of the bloating, no big deal. Well, the long-term consequences could include multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's disease, dementia, cognitive impairment, panic attacks, depression, suicide, colon cancer, lymphoma. In other words, we're not talking about just having some constipation or lack of the regularity.

We're talking about serious life shortening processes. But once you get that and once you embrace some of the very basic things we're talking about, like SIBO yogurt, come on yogurt, right? For medicine foods.

You can even buy some for medicine foods now. It's not that big a deal. And yet you're not in your given huge control over, over your future health and I tell people, don't bury your head in the sand over this. It's only your life.

TalkToMeGuy I mean, having a healthy life is way more fun than having a not healthy life. I don't know. I thought said very well, bad marketing, but the idea is, you know, that it's that's back to the yogurt, the rotary yogurt to have more happiness. Geez. How horrible is that? I'm happier. Wow. I love that idea.

That is so great. I have one little sort of a footnote warning that I have seen some of the fermented foods. I won't name the companies, but I have seen some where they've been pasteurized.

And I'm thinking, wow, does that seem stupid? So I would suggest everybody avoid pasteurized. Any of the fermented food. So there'd be Kim G or whatever you're looking for. Just make sure that it hasn't been snuck somewhere on the label. Cause wouldn't that kill every most everything in the bottle? You then have vegetables that are fermented, but the pathogens are killed by pasteurization. Yeah.

William Davis, MD: If the food is pasteurized after being fermented, you're exactly right. You're going to kill the microbes. I'm some, another, another innocent mistake people make is they make a smoothie with their blender and the blender kills not all, but a lot of the microbes.

So we do have to pay attention to certain things. If you're going to ferment vegetables on your kitchen counter, for instance, we're going to make a brine that is water with salt, but we're going to have to filter the water. We don't want chlorine or fluoride in it.

We're going to use non iodized salt cause we don't want iodine in it. And you don't want produce that has such things as coatings on it, like wax coatings on cucumbers. Cause it will ferment.

It won't ferment because it's, it's blocking the fermentation, the reproduction of microbes, your resident on the surface of that vegetable. By the way, uh, it's a lot easier if you want to go a little faster and get better results. If you buy a starter culture. So there are companies that sell starter cultures. And by the way, once you make a fermented food, whether it's yogurt or kefir or fermented cucumbers, you make the next batch from a little of a prior batch. So there's a little bit of maybe an upfront investment to buy that microbe or buy those vegetables, but then you make subsequent batches from a prior batch. And so you longterm costs very little to do this.

TalkToMeGuy I think it would have been amazing during COVID. If instead of everybody talking about their starter, everybody had started talking about fermented food. Amazing. That would have been a great thing to have happened. Well, doctor, uh, that went faster than I thought it would as always. And, um, where would you like people to find out more about your, uh, the yogurt, the inner circle, and I'll post in the show notes where people can find out more information about that. Is there some place where they can read about that study done with the women, the trial study?

William Davis, MD: No, we didn't publish that. We didn't publish the study, Richard, just because it was a skin study and we had some technical difficulties, but the great things it became out with unexpected finding.

We're going to repeat it. You know, I'm not a dermatologist. So it was my first skin study.

So there's some refinement, but we will do it again. So we don't have that made public, but if you want to know more, the super gut book is a good starting place. It's got the recipes for all these yogurt. By the way, so we're talking a lot about Rutterite, but there's many other microbes that have other very beneficial effects for children, for infants, for adults, for teenagers. You can do all sorts of things with these microbes. So it's a really exciting time.

So that's all in the super gut book. My website, the umbrella website is drdavisinfinitehealth.com. And you know, people will find several thousand blog posts there, several hundred thousand discussion forum posts. And we also have a two way zoom typically once a week. We talk about all these kinds of things in a two way conversation.

Uh, and then I won't mention the product cause I don't want to have any regulatory angles, but there is information you can get on the, on the product that encapsulates these four components. Right. Okay.

TalkToMeGuy All right. Thank you so much. That was fun. As always.

William Davis, MD: Thank you, Richard. My pleasure. Good to hear your voice again.

TalkToMeGuy Thank you. Everybody have a great rest of the weekend. We'll see you next week.