John Gray's Unconventional Wisdom on Health, Hormones & Happiness

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TalkToMeGuy : Greetings everyone. This is the Sound Health Radio Show where we talk about the crossroads of the environment, our health and longevity, with Richard Tachtamigay and Sherry Edwards off working on the Sound Health Portal. I would suggest going to the SoundHealthPortal.com, scrolling down just a bit and clicking on the Watch How button. You'll see a short video explaining how to record and submit your first recording. Then go back to SoundHealthPortal.com, scroll down to current active campaigns such as cellular inflammation, bio-diet, neuroplasticity, or memory.

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If you'd like to leave me a voice message with a question for a guest or a guest idea for a show, you can do that directly from the site and I will be notified. With that, John Gray is the author of Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus, one of the most influential relationship books of all time. USA Today listed it as one of the top 10 most influential books of the last quarter century, and it was the number one best-selling book of the decade. Translated into 45 languages across more than 100 countries, his Mars-Venus series has forever changed how men and women view their relationships. Dr. Gray has written over 20 books, with his most recent being Beyond Mars and Venus. Through his books, workshops and online resources at MarsVenus.com, he offers practical guidance for enhancing relationships at every stage. Dr. Gray helps men and women better understand their differences in both personal and professional relationships. His work extends beyond relationships to advocate for optimal brain function and natural solutions for depression, anxiety and stress, promoting better energy, sleep and overall well-being. John Gray's personal life is a testament to the effectiveness of his relationship advice. John resides in Northern California. He spent 34 fulfilling years with his beloved wife, Bonnie, until their passing in 2018.

They raised three daughters and are now proud grandparents to five. John is not just an author who lives and breathes his own health and relationship advice, but a true testament to its effectiveness. Welcome, John.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Thank you so much. Wonderful introduction. Thank you.

TalkToMeGuy : It's my opening question because I want to know if this is an early point of origin for you. You discovered early on that you had early stage Parkinson's. Was that a launching point for part of your career, figuring out nutrition for yourself that eventually led you to create your own protein shake and product line? And the second question to that is, did this then carry over into your client's work and enhance their well-being?

John Gray, Ph.D.: Well, that's true. You know, for the decade of the 90s, I was just out there promoting men from Mars, women from Venus, teaching those ideas to hundreds of thousands of people. It was a huge time in my life. And Parkinson's, dementia, Alzheimer's, it runs in my family at young ages. So at 50, which was almost 25 years ago, I started having the early stage symptoms of Parkinson's and voluntary shaking. And I sort of backed off at that point from traveling and teaching my seminars and instead focused on wellness. And I created a wellness center up in Northern California where I invited other alternative natural pathic doctors, researchers to come and speak at wellness conferences and health. Primarily, it was my own interest in trying to heal myself. And then I realized for me, the journey wasn't going to be so hard.

I was able to reverse those early symptoms and developing a protocol with the help of some experts. And then I, you know, people said, well, how did you do it? So then I told them and gradually I developed a protein shake and some supplements that helped me. And then I eventually opened a host store on my website of other natural solutions for things. And then when the shutdown happened, I closed my store and I just recommend to people, other people's products. I don't have my own line. I did keep one product, which I find nobody else, you know, sells. So I wanted people to eventually get that. But all the other things I was recommending, you can find in other places and I recommend people how to find that.

TalkToMeGuy : And did that spill into you were a therapist or you were seeing clients. Did that were you always oriented toward nutrition or was it really you're figuring out what worked for you? Then adding that as a part of educated, you're an educator. I've listened to you speak as we've talked.

I've been listening to you for years. So you're an educator. And did that did the what you learned for your own health then spill over into your educating your clients because they you wanted them to be healthier as well.

John Gray, Ph.D.: I want them to be healthier. My focus was never health and my focus was always relationships. But then when I had the early stage Parkinson, I found the natural solution. Then what happened is not only did the Parkinson's go away but a symptoms of a dd which I had and didn't even know I had a dd it was just sort of becoming into the common awareness.

Those symptoms went away. Those symptoms were for me it was reading fiction. Nonfiction.

I could read that quite well doing my research but fiction would just bore me to death. My brain would just go to sleep and that's one symptom of a dd is that you need more stimulation more relevant stimulation. And the big part of it those I realized for my clients men would often just become bored and tired and distracted in their relationships with their wives and their relationships and that is a classic symptom of a dd. And for women they have this tendency quite commonly a feeling overwhelmed with too much to do and not able to turn off the brain. That's a female symptom of a dd. So men become hyper dependent on high stimulation and woman sharing about her day and what's going on it can become. It doesn't stimulate a lot of dopamine so he kind of goes to sleep or gets distracted as mine can't stay focused on her. And that's a symptom of a dd when you when you have kids in a classroom and they can't listen to the teacher it's just their board with what the teacher is saying. You put those same kids in front of a video game which stimulates high dopamine and they can be there for hours so it's not a problem of focus it's a practice a problem of a regular healthy regulation of dopamine. And for women instead of becoming hyper focused they become hyper expanded and that they can't sort of stay with one thing their mind is remembering the past or mine is always remember thinking about the future their mind is thinking about all the things they still have to do it's hard for them to wind down.

So then I realized that although my relationship skills were very helpful and still are the people. If you add to that some extra nutrition those those tendencies towards a dd disappear. I mean like within weeks it's amazing and then my grandchildren at that time. They started using the shakes. They loved them to and the and the minerals is a balance of shakes is super food shakes and super minerals. Now those super minerals are called elemental orates. It's a unique product that you don't find everywhere. That's a whole show.

TalkToMeGuy : I'm a huge well because I'm a huge fan of minerals and electrolytes. Yeah because it's one of those things it's like you know hormones and electrolytes run the run everything. Right.

John Gray, Ph.D.: And I could do the whole show but I figure we want to talk about other things.

TalkToMeGuy : No we want to talk about other things but electrolytes are so such a sleeper. I don't know why it's suddenly like people are going oh minerals are really good really you think so. That's why eating whole foods is really amazing or having a great shake in your life or okay I'll stop.

Yeah but it's really really important. And when did oxytocin really light up for you because that's something eventually you get to talking about in relationships and women producing more oxytocin and how to bump that and I'll ask you about the hack of hugging later. But when did oxytocin become what I would call a feature in your thinking and awareness.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Well actually it was when I was researching the differences between men and women. I was I was sit in the malls and watch women. I would go to restaurants and sit in a booth next to a group of women talking because women talk differently when men aren't around. And then watching women you know typically the malls were 80% women at that time. And I noticed again and again and again a woman with a baby in a stroller women would light up when they would see that baby and they would smile they'd be happy.

I thought what was that. And then I was doing some research and finding that you know when when a mother has a baby the oxytocin levels dramatically go up when a woman is holding or looking at a baby if she's if she's pretty much traditionally more feminine. She'll just light up every woman wants to hold the baby get close to the baby. And they said that was due to oxytocin. So then I realized that the same response would happen with my clients when they would open up and share their feelings.

They would just feel so much better and come alive connecting to their deeper emotions. And so I began teaching you know women have this hormone called oxytocin that's directly linked to their stress levels to lowering their stress. Then in 2001 some women did the research on it and found that if two women at work are talking with each other and sharing with each other. There's a hormone called oxytocin that gets produced which lowers her stress. So there's a whole since that time it's become sort of in the scientific research oxytocin has become known to be the major hormone to lower stress and women it opens your heart more. It doesn't necessarily lower a man's stress that's where they are a little misleading they kind of just say oxytocin lower stress. If a man is really disconnected from his female feelings from emotions oxytocin can possibly lower his stress but it really lowers testosterone and men need more testosterone. That's why when a man's talking with his wife his oxytocin will go up or actually the biggest time when a man experiences oxytocin is it was when he's having a climax in the bedroom.

That just puts him right to sleep. Now you can see the evidence of it right then and she's ready to cuddle and talk and share and feel great. So oxytocin is really key now I'm doing a lot of research since them and finding out that actually it's estrogen that calms a woman's brain and lowers her stress. Oxytocin is creates when a woman is somewhat stressed oxytocin actually gets produced to motivate her to reach out and give and get support. And when she anticipates getting support then her estrogen levels go up and it's estrogen that actually working with oxytocin that calms her brain and does all these beneficial effects for women and keeps them young. And then when women go through menopause unless they understand relationship skills very quickly they stop producing estrogen. They produce S there's two types of estrogen when you're cycling you're still having your period you make estrogen estrogen which is called astrodial. And but after you are no longer having your period your body primarily makes estrone which is kind of the opposite effect of estrogen estrogen says I need help I need support and estrogen levels have to double around ovulation time which makes a woman more interested in finding a man and getting help.

And she's looking in her life do I have the kind of support I need and whatever to have a child this is all just subconscious. Well once she can't make babies anymore, then her brain stops producing astrodial and makes estrone. Estrone is called a weaker estrogen weaker meaning primarily it doesn't have all the beneficial effects of estrogen.

It does keep a woman from feeling anxious to some extent or self sufficient, but she doesn't feel the need for relationship as much she doesn't feel the need for a man in her life she doesn't need to need for romantic intimacy. And she loses the benefits of estrogen, astrodial, which would, you know, make the skin moist, you know, it's when estrone comes in that women get wrinkles. It's estrogen that comes in that women, you know, 90% of osteoporosis is women. You know, also with estrone, she can experience greater levels of anxiety and depression according to statistics so it's getting old, but estrogen, estrogen, astrodial keeps women young and and more connected to their happy periods. They have happy feelings, they're joyful feelings, they're playful feelings and they can what most people don't realize which is I'm writing a book now on the importance of women learning these romantic relationship skills because all it takes is doing the same things that fulfill estrogen needs for a younger woman. If you do those things, your body will make estrogen, astrodial once again, and you can stay young and happy and have a romantic relationship for a lifetime, and that's possible and I experienced it with my wife.

TalkToMeGuy : And we're going to step slightly sideways for a moment, still the same category. I hear a lot massive amounts of conversation I've interviewed a bunch of experts where we end we talk about menopause. I don't hear very many people talking about andropause.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Well, you know, they don't use that term but actually it's all over the news. I mean, it's all over the internet. It seems like they're always saying, you know, take pills to increase your testosterone and andropause. Maybe they don't say andropause because they don't hear that so often, just because a 20 year old has it.

It's no longer considered just andropause. It's considered chronic epidemic of low testosterone and males. Your average 20 year old male has 20% less testosterone than this 20 years ago and probably half of what was, you know, 75 years ago when I was born.

Men used to be very much more masculine and there's a benefit to men having more female hormones. There's no question about it. I feel really lucky that when I married Bonnie, she said, now you have to promise me if you want me to marry you. You have to promise me if we have a child that you're going to stay there and be there. And I did.

I made a big solemn promise about that. That I'd be a 50-50 parent. And I'm so glad I made that promise because when it became so successful, I could have easily just taken off and made huge amounts of money and and and then, you know, become a workaholic. And I have to say, I kept that moderate to a certain extent because of that. And because I was able to make that promise to her, I got the opportunity to spend more time with my children and be part of my family.

So I have no regrets about that. I spent a lot of time with my kids growing up and I didn't miss out on that process and a lot of successful men do. And instead, being with the family, they created a higher level of fulfillment, in my opinion, because I was able to stay connected to what we'll call female hormones, which is estrogen. And because I was still working hard, I had very high testosterone. Even today, my both my testosterone, estrogen levels are very high. Now, normally for men as anthropos means their testosterone goes down and their estrogen goes up.

That's a natural phenomena of a man's estrogen going up as he gets older. We need to mute somebody. There we go. So for me, I was able to have that time with the family, which nourishes both your male and female side. I think the greatest to be an appropriate balance of masculine hormones and feminine hormones. And if you look at something which is universal between men and women around the world is that when a man is stressed, which is a state of imbalance chronically stressed, his testosterone will be too low. And according to standard natural figures and his estrogen will be too high.

So translate into relationship words, Mars Venus ideas, his male side is weak and his female side is strong. And that creates is always linked to fight or flight in men. Stress responses. When a woman is stressed, always her estrogen is low and her testosterone is high. And anytime a woman is anxiety, stress, whatever her estrogen will tend to be too low, her testosterone will tend to be too high. So that's a big emphasis in my work today, which is being aware of that balance and imbalance is how to create hormonal balance in women. We're not talking about taking hormones. We're talking about understanding behaviors that will a man can do to help a woman raise her estrogen and behaviors that a woman can do that will help raise a man's testosterone and broaden that approach. What I can do is a man to make sure my testosterone stays high as a man at 73 years old, my testosterone is 50% higher than I was a young man.

And that's not your common experience. But when you understand the ideas of how to communicate in a way and be in a relationship, which balances hormones, men don't have to have their testosterone levels go down. But without that, andropause is men at 35, they start losing one to 2% of their testosterone every year. That's not the case for me. And I've had my testosterone tested to confirm that the and there are many men who are doing are able to keep their testosterone levels very high and healthy.

High is just healthy is what I mean. One of the big things is a great sex life. When a man makes love with his wife, if he's in a committed relationship, it will sustain higher testosterone levels. And why I say a committed relationship is because pornography and one night stands and all that lowers testosterone over time.

When you're in a committed relationship and you make love with your wife, if you're a man and a woman, your body does something very unique. It makes 400% more prolactin. And prolactin is another hormone that for both men and women lowers stress in a different way.

What it does is it frees you from addictive cravings. It sort of natures a hormone that says now that you've got a baby, you're married and you've got a baby, we're going to give you prolactin so you don't stray. You see, when people stray from marriage, I mean, there could be many reasons why they stray. They could just be really, really unhappy. But quite often there's many couples who are happy together, but they just lose that attraction. And so then they stray, they get excited by somebody else and they go, gosh, I feel so alive.

This feels great. I love my wife. I love my husband, but I'm just not getting it. And so that romantic feeling will go away. What prolactin does is it frees us from that addictive craving for high stimulation, another symptom of addiction, or we can call it ADD.

It's the same thing. Inhibited dopamine function where you need high stimulation in order to feel alive rather than normal stimulation of a wife you're married to for 40 years. So these are these biological hacks that I'm helping people to understand the importance of monogamy and for men, the importance of making sure that when you have sex, it's with somebody you love as opposed to somebody you don't love and you just love the experience. That in itself causes addictive tendencies and ADD, etc.

TalkToMeGuy : And in your case, you've been particularly driven in the best of ways of your own research for your early stage Parkinson's that you've been on a high protein plan for quite a while and the aforementioned micronutrients. Is that supporting your testosterone levels?

John Gray, Ph.D.: Oh my gosh, completely. You know, the biggest obstacle is as men's testosterone levels naturally drop. What happens is their estrogen goes up. Now, estrogen going up is a good thing. There's nothing wrong with it as long as your testosterone stays high. But if you're doing things that will lower your testosterone and your estrogen inevitably is going to go high as you get older.

And then now you're going to be in a state of chronic stress. And what happens is when your estrogen is high, if your testosterone isn't, you know, like much, much higher than what will happen is estrogen has the effect for men of putting belly fat. And when your body has belly fat in your man, that belly fat has the effect of making more estrogen. And then that more estrogen has the effect of storing more fat. So you have this sort of estrogen making machine with belly fat. So part of how I got motivated using protein shakes is using that as a meal replacement for several days and occasionally doing a short fast to keep my belly fat down. Because once you get that belly fat, you've got an estrogen machine that continues to lower your testosterone.

That's one aspect of it. So protein shakes and occasional fasting, short fast has helped me stay trim, which is very important. But I don't do too much fasting because another thing happens as you get older, which is sarcopenia. Sarcopenia is the loss of muscle mass. And once again, it's the muscle mass and why high protein is so important.

It's the muscle mass that helps men produce testosterone. So it's not like I'm this big muscle weightlifter guy, but I do my exercises every day. I've never been a big muscle weightlifter, but muscle mass for me is the optimal. And if you keep your muscle mass as your man appropriate to your body type, there's different body types. There's the ectomorph body type, which doesn't really have as much muscle as the other types. There's the endomorph type. And then there's the mesomorph type. And the mesomorph type really needs to build those muscles and keep them up in a moderate way. Otherwise, they will lose muscle mass more quickly and they will also lose testosterone.

But the problem for mesomorphs, this is like a V shape. When you're younger, you have wider shoulders and a smaller waist. And you have more muscle mass and your body builds muscle faster is that building muscles does produce endorphins. And endorphins can also be addictive. So some people are addicted to going to the gym. And one of the symptoms for them is low testosterone because they use up their testosterone building up their muscles. This is one of the first things I learned about men, which is when I'm long before the internet, I was, you know, studying men and women, different types and so forth. In the muscle magazines, they were always these libido pills. And these are for young men. I thought, what man needs libido pills?

Well, but it became a counselor. I discovered that many of the weightlifter men that I had who have big muscle mass look fantastic were also impotent in terms of their relationships, unless it was a new woman. If it was a new woman, one night stand or during porn, they could get erections because the that's those will call them.

Non intimate sex. That stimulates high dopamine, which gives them a temporary rush of testosterone. But once you're in a relationship with a woman, the newness quickly goes away, particularly if you're low testosterone and doesn't produce a lot of dopamine. So you may love the woman. You may care for her, but you don't have that desire and body response, which is being able to have an erection and feel attraction and have a regular sex life. So these guys, now then with lower testosterone, then they have to take Viagra, which is not healthy for you, has all kinds of bad side effects.

And it's certainly not going to do it for a woman. In the beginning, there's a novelty to it. So anytime there's novelty, there's dopamine, but after a while, there's no intimacy if your body's not actually making the testosterone. Women, they thrive on being intimate with a man with healthy testosterone levels. When his testosterone goes up in her presence, it raises her estrogen levels. And for her to have a fulfilling sex life, generally speaking, her estrogen levels have to double during the act of intimacy. And that happens as the man's testosterone goes up, her estrogen goes up as her estrogen goes up, his testosterone goes higher. So there's a nice little inter interrelated interdependent dance between men and women.

And that's called polarity. And, you know, one of the questions that people often have is, well, how do you keep the attraction going? Because prolactin, we remember mentioned that hormone that goes up 400% in married couples and only in married couples are in long term committed relationships. Prolactin frees you from looking outside the relationship.

It also frees you from addictive tendencies that also helps get rid of ADD. But it doesn't create polarity in the relationship. It just means that if you don't have polarity in relationship, you're not going to look outside the relationship, but you're not going to be missing anything in the relationship when it comes to physical intimacy and sex.

So what keeps the sex life alive is when a man's testosterone levels compared to his wife are higher and her estrogen levels are higher than his estrogen levels. So it's that opposites that create attraction when it comes on the physical level. On the physical level, it's like a magnet. Magnetic energy is a positive pole and a negative pole.

When they get close, then they have a click and that click is the spark of excitement and which generates the desire to connect physically in that most intimate way with love.

TalkToMeGuy : Wow. And so this is a phrase I coined a long time ago doing a show with Susan Bratton that would be to being a biomarker of health.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Yes, absolutely. No question about it. It's a big biomarker of keeping your testosterone levels up if you're a man. I know a few other men who have high testosterone in their 70s and just personally, and they are very, very strict in their monogamy and they're very, very successful and hard workers. And they're not thinking about retirement. One of the things that lowers testosterone is when a man's looking forward to retirement, his testosterone is already low and it just goes lower. And years back, I saw the insurance companies, you know, they're concerned about when you're going to die. They have, they conclude that when a man retires, this is very key and he doesn't keep working, his testosterone levels will significantly drop.

And he will have three years before his first heart attack. Wow. They know that.

Wow. Men do not die when they have healthy testosterone levels, at least too soon we'll put it that way. You know, I think when it comes to life and death, to great extent, you know, we have our personal destiny and we have our own unique genes and so forth. But we want to make the develop our full potential in that and part of our full potential is doing the things that will create hormonal balance. And that's all I'm talking about is hormonal balance. I mean, when I was a younger guy, clearly, I did have less testosterone than now, but I certainly had less estrogen. The increasing of estrogen in men is inevitable. The increasing of testosterone for women is inevitable. As women go to their testosterone side, their challenge is to continue staying and producing estradiol. You know, that's that hormone.

Otherwise, they just produce this hormone called estrone and estrone creates a feeling of self sufficiency. And I kind of go, why did God do that? And well, in the past, often men would die younger. It's always been the case with war and fighting and during dirty, dangerous, difficult jobs going in the jungle, protecting women.

And so quite often men would die often and women would be left alone. So this hormone, estrone is beneficial and it allows a woman to feel less anxiety around taking care of herself. Although women can have anxiety as they get older, but that's its benefit.

It makes you feel more self sufficient. What I'm doing is trying to help women get back to staying younger and healthier and acknowledge the part of them that loves romantic intimacy. Romantic intimacy is this major estradiol stimulator. And just because your body is not automatically making it, if you choose, you see, when you're younger, you kind of have no choice if you're a woman. A part of you starts feeling, I need more, I need more, I need more. Where when you get beyond menopause, your body's not crying out saying, I need more, I need more. It's not making a lot of oxytocin. Oxytocin is the hormone that says, hey, I need support. And so as you make less oxytocin, you don't reach out for support. But what I'm teaching women is that even though you don't feel like you need support, you can, doesn't it feel good to get support? Isn't it, don't you like that? You can choose to do the things that will stimulate estradiol, but it becomes a choice rather than a need.

TalkToMeGuy : Choice is always good.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Yeah, choice is always good. Choice is good. You know, and I look at women in menopause with producing estrone, and one of the things is why do I need a man for many women? And that's really what's happening to young women today.

It's like they're all in menopause. You know, they're out there busy being on their male side, and they're kind of go, I don't need a man. I don't need that romance. I don't need that intimacy. I don't need that closeness.

I can just do it all myself. And, you know, from one point of view, their stress levels are dramatically higher, and you can measure that. Women in the workplace, one of the big challenges for them is often called work-life balance, and then books come out saying the myth of work-life balance, like it's not achievable, and no it is. And it's achievable on a hormonal level, in that when you go to work, your body's primarily making testosterone. All the activities of the workplace are about putting other people in front of you, and you're doing it for money.

So your reward is money, and to a great extent. Well, that just makes testosterone. So when are you making estrogen?

You don't. So all day long, women used to historically be making estrogen doing, depending on each other, in a non-payment-oriented way, sharing, expressing feelings, talking, depending on each other, helping each other. These are all oxytocin and estrogen-stimulating activities, but she's not doing that all day.

And even if she does some of that, if she's primarily motivated by money, she's not coming from a place of feminine energy, which is not goal-oriented, but relationship-oriented. So, you know, in my books, I give women long lists of things you can do and say and whatever to help produce estrogen, what men can do and say to help produce estrogen in women, and what women can do to produce testosterone in men.

TalkToMeGuy : And in the, since you mentioned workplace, or in my mind, you mentioned workplace, because in Mars Venus in the workplace, you talk about discovering that women's biggest complaint was not feeling appreciated by male colleagues. What are the, are there simple ways men can show appreciation that actually lands with women without being patronizing or stupid?

John Gray, Ph.D.: Well, that was sort of my first wake-up call in terms of the differences between men and women. I'll try to keep this story short, but it's when my assistant, I was just a counselor teaching classes, and she did everything. She got the hotels, she took the money, she arranged everything, she handled my schedule. She was like, you know, my girl Friday kind of a thing, you know, she did everything.

I had no complaints. She was the best. And then one day she said she wanted to quit. And I said, why do you want to quit? And she says, I don't feel appreciated.

I said, what? In my mind, I appreciated her totally, but I didn't say that. I just said, well, help me understand why you don't feel appreciated. She says, well, I do so much and you don't even know what I do.

And I said, give me two weeks and I'll find out what you do. And then she felt, since I knew what she was doing, that I was appreciating her. But for me as a man, if somebody doesn't criticize me, if somebody doesn't complain about me, if somebody pays me well, if somebody gives me the freedom to make decisions, all of my own is not hovering over me, I feel greatly valued and appreciated. But that's what I was giving her, and that didn't make her feel valued and appreciated. So we had this relationship of I did my job, she did her job and we're both happy.

Well, she wasn't happy because what women need is relationship, not intimate relationship, but to produce in the workplace, but they need to feel included. They need to feel seen. They need to feel heard.

They need to feel you care about them, that you know what's going on in their lives. So by doing that, what I was, as her partner or leader, whatever, she was getting the stimulation of more estrogen in the workplace. And therefore, when she got the attention and understanding, then she felt appreciated. But the study we did actually concluded that women didn't feel appreciated by men, and we were over here saying, sure, I appreciate the women. So so many times it's just not understanding how to provide the support that somebody really needs. And ironically, if a woman is feeling unappreciated and you just simply say stuff like good idea, thanks so much, I feel so grateful that you're in my life. That doesn't make them feel appreciated. What makes them feel appreciated is when you include them, when you ask them questions, when they talk, when you hear them, it's when a woman feels heard. And when a woman feels like you care about her, it's when a woman feels that you don't judge her. When a woman feels that you respect her wishes and needs as an equal. That's what makes a woman feel appreciated.

Certainly, I like all those things, but what makes me feel appreciated is when you don't tell me what to do and you give me rewards and you're happy with me, I feel very appreciated. And that's the bottom line in relationships between men and women and marriage is that men only leave marriages when men feel she doesn't appreciate him. He'll say, you know, no matter what I do, it's never enough to make her happy. And what she'll say is I do and I do and I do and he doesn't give back. She'll say I don't feel appreciated, but really, which she's underlying what it means when she's a don't feel appreciated. It means you don't care about me and honor stand me. You don't respect me.

TalkToMeGuy : And now we're going to step into therapy for a moment. Again, in this is still we're still in the Mars Venus in the workplace category. Women tell you they're growing through personal development while the partners aren't just interested in self-help books. You say this is actually okay. Would you say more about that?

John Gray, Ph.D.: So many women are because our civilization has changed and that women can be more independent and self-sufficient without depending on a man. Their emotional needs have gone higher in a sense where the need for achievement, the need for personal expression, the need for personal growth, developing their potential. Those needs become much more important to her. And because they're more important to her, she thinks a man can't give her what she needs unless those needs are important to him.

But when a man can do the basics of being a man, which is being a good provider, he has a job. He doesn't get angry about stuff. He's very grounded. He doesn't need to talk about his feelings. This is your more traditional male when relationships worked.

They're all symptoms of high testosterone. Personal growth, expressing feelings, talking about your dreams together. This is sort of a romantic fantasy that women have.

And men often will go away to their female side at the very beginning of a relationship because there's so much dopamine being produced due to the novelty of a new relationship that both his testosterone estrogen levels go up. But when it comes to lowering stress for women, it's about having that, those higher needs fulfilled for personal growth, personal development, taking classes and whatever, reading books for personal development. All of that is about me, me, me. Okay, she's all about me, me, me. Ironically, she says he's such a narcissist because he's about watching football games or going to the gym or improving his skills and talents, fixing things. He doesn't have the same me, me needs that she has. And, you know, when, when, when I'm taking a class on self improvement, I'm actually on my female side, whereas, you know, one of the complaints that I talk about in men and from Mars that men have about women is that once you marry a woman, she starts trying to improve you.

You know, self improvement, improving others. That's a very feminine quality. Now I'm not saying men shouldn't do that some men do I do it, but I would have very low, low testosterone, unless I also worked really, really hard and focused on making money, making a difference in the world solving problems being responsible taking care of my wife taking care of my family and I'm more that traditional guy, where my wife didn't have to work. She worked only because she chose to work because she liked it and it was only part time she could have a very balanced life where she could raise the children and be there and cook and have a beautiful home. You know, after she died, that's one of the things I really miss my life just just isn't, you know, close to what it was when I was with her, because she created such a beautiful life for us, you know, when men are doing the male things which are not necessarily this personal growth and personal development. You know, if you're going to my joke has always been if you want to find a woman, you know, carry my book around.

However, if you're out of work if you're in an out of work line, and you're carrying my book no one's going to be interested in you. You know, personal growth is a luxury, but the foundation is what women need most and sometimes women. They feel like oh we can't be so close and intimate if we don't share these things I said that's what we have other girlfriends for you do that with them. You look to him for a groundedness a solidness of man who has goals, and he wants to achieve those goals and they're not all about self improvement. But then women say but I want him to change well that's her problem she doesn't know what love is love is accepting someone just the way they are.

But clearly and I'm on her side for a moment. Once men get to this first few years of relationship and sometimes sooner they become more passive they they don't have the energy they had in the beginning and that's another biological reality of the newness goes away. Then what will happen is his testosterone level his dopamine levels drop when the newness goes away routine sets in and that lowers his testosterone so he literally doesn't have the interest the motivation the energy he had in the beginning. Just by coming home to her that what happens is men come home and they're tired. Well you weren't tired in the first couple years.

Okay that's because you had the healthy dopamine levels which is why I have all this protein shakes and all these things to keep men's dopamine levels healthy. But as far as relationship levels go. What can what can stimulate his testosterone is we learns how to provide the stimulation that will raise her estrogen and women don't need a man to read my book to get this change in a man where he feels that energy and motivation again. This is why the book I'm finishing now is it's called be happy with or without a man. It's only for women to read because sometimes women say oh you know our relationship can't get better unless he reads men are from Mars. Men some men read that book actually a lot of men read that book because it's so supportive of men but generally men don't read the self improvement books.

They're busy you know making the world a better place not thinking about themselves but thinking about solving problems fixing things. And then they need their time for recreation which I'll call the cave time in order for him to sustain and rebuild his testosterone levels because testosterone goes up through taking action working hard and then work resting hard and then to go to a higher level is be present for a woman and have your heart be open that's the improvement for men is just being in a good relationship loving your family loving your kids and she can busy you know self improving herself and that's all important because you don't want to depend on a man for everything. What you want is to depend on him for certain things a man can offer and that's the issue here is that when you first fall in love and you're a woman. It's like he fulfills all your needs because there's so much dopamine getting produced you'll see this in teenage girls they completely drop their personal life and focus just on the guy.

Well older women do that too. They but the way they do it is they they focus on him they get all their needs met from him and then when he no longer has that high dopamine. She feels starts feeling he's not the way used to be is not the way used to be so she has to balance her life of not expecting too much from him. He has to show up more and the way he can show up more is by learning these communication skills I teach one of the basic ones one of the many that I teach is learning the Venus talk the Venus talk is every day at a certain time at any time a woman puts up two hands and that says I just want to talk about my day for 10 minutes and she has to learn how to talk about her day for 10 minutes sharing emotions and feelings. Not just what happened or didn't happen but the emotions that go along with that. Whereas women are well that we think they're more emotional actually they don't share those emotions they share what's called feeling thoughts. You know I feel like this happened I feel like they don't care whatever whenever you say I feel like something you're suppressing an emotion.

These are all very advanced sort of therapeutic ideas but it's what will change the world. If I say I feel like if you say I feel like you're you don't care about me anymore actually saying I feel like you're suppressing the emotion of I feel disappointed because you're so busy I want to spend time with you. A whole awareness opens up to women when they start learning how to express their emotions. And we know in the news media that when it when it bleeds it leads same thing if you want to man's attention you have to bring emotion into the conversation. If you don't bring emotion in the conversation it's going to be pretty boring for him.

He'll lose interest he doesn't want to do it and she doesn't you know want to talk to somebody who's not interested. So if you want a man to be interested you share emotion and when you share emotion estrogen goes up talking about what happened doesn't produce a lot of estrogen and doesn't produce a lot of testosterone in him. So there's subtleties to this we're talking about trying to create a world where women can be more masculine during the day and find work life balance and men can keep their testosterone levels up because women will still need us. If you're not raising a woman's estrogen your testosterone levels will crash one of the biggest harms to society and this whole feminist movement is you know women are out there taking all the jobs and men are kind of like what do women need us for. You know if women don't need us what do we hear for just making money you know if life is empty you want to feel that a woman depends on you her estrogen goes up in your presence.

So you know I'm not saying turn back the clock at all I'm just saying that problem happened women there that's not changing to a great extent. So women can find this work life balance come home and use your man to help you come back to your female side and one of the most powerful tools is make your man your therapist you have the problem he is the solution. If he is the problem all he's going to do is have low testosterone. If you are the problem meaning you need help you're in you're unhappy but you can use him to become happy.

Then he has a job to do and then this is the reality women come to me pay me $500 an hour just have me hear them talk. Why because I'm a good listener. But the reason I can listen is because they're not blaming me if women learn how to talk about other things other than their partner.

In terms of complaining and emotions not just complaining with the emotions behind your complaints. Then what happens if you say to a man it's not your fault you don't have to do anything I'm not asking you to change it just need to listen for 10 minutes and when I'm done don't speak the whole time. Just say I hear you give me a hug I'm a happy camper. What man won't do that once he learns he's not going to be blamed. That's why you don't even say I need to talk because all you have to do is say to a man I need to talk and already a stress levels go up. Moderate stress levels go up he's expecting what I'm going to be blamed for now what did I not do right what I have to do now that I'm not having to do now. So there's a this little moderate stress reaction actually has a biological effect on men that women don't understand can't comprehend because their biology is completely different.

What happens when a man has a moderate stress what's called mirror neurons in his brain they close down he cannot feel empathy or connect with her at a time when she wants to talk and feel his empathy. It's like without this knowledge that I don't know how anybody makes a relationship work although I still want to say that they're more traditional couples and it does work because tradition put men more in the role of providing and women dependent on men and they needed help. So that gives rise to the reality that at least 50% of marriages are doing great often say oh there's 50% divorce and my message is what least 50% are going great and figure out why they're going great. And they're going great because there's a dynamic there where a man feels he's contributing meaningful support to a woman and she's not expecting him to be a girl a girlfriend. When women are in their male side all the time they need girlfriends that's another big thing that's missing actually when two women talk it has a different biological effect in her brain they want a woman talks to a man.

You get two different benefits and that that I explore in my new book and great details all biology it's all wiring. And if we're going to change and upset the whole history of humanity where women are out there doing male jobs. We need to do some adjusting if we want to experience great relationships and my belief is that you can even have better relationships even traditional relationships get better using these skills.

TalkToMeGuy : And I want to jump to because we're sort of I'm surprised we're we're coming around the end that in your book Children are from heaven. You focus on building self esteem in children with the rising of the rise of homeschooling and unschooling. What's your advice for parents who want to raise confident capable kids today.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Well start reading you know my book is really good Children are from heaven it's about building your child self esteem. However you know since I wrote that book I also have become aware of homeschooling and unschooling and think it's brilliant. Personally I would never send my children into a normal classroom the way they are now. They actually show that these children's brains shrink. They're only told what they should what they should think as opposed to how to think. And there's so many alternative types of school.

Waldorf another one at least my children went to Waldorf type schools. I for example you know have done very well in my life being a creative person and I slept all the way through school. Literally slept.

I mean my head was on the table. It bored me to death. Now one could say that was a symptom of a D. A D D. But it's also a symptom of just simply this was not relevant to my life. I don't like people just telling me what to think. I developed the ability to think for myself which is why I've created over 20 books 30 books and and out of the box thinking is our children don't learn to create. They don't learn to be creative.

They just follow the rules which is numbing them and doing what other people say they should do and thinking what other people think rather than finding out their own solutions to things. So other books that I would recommend one is called as a beginning to the unschooling and then homeschooling but one book is very powerful even if you're not going to do that. And that's called hunt gather parent and read it three times reading it once won't do it. It's it's completely like my ideas are completely out of the box. These are traditional ideas updated that are completely out of the box. And I've watched my daughter Lauren who teaches classes as well at Mars Venus dot com and she's raising her child using these ideas and I'm my mind is blown. There's so many ideas in it but just simply let's say we're walking along and the child starts walking in the street. The mother doesn't say don't walk in the street. We already know that when you say don't do a child it makes them want to do it.

It creates a reaction. But for other reasons as well she doesn't say don't walk in the street. She's just simply is peaceful and says you know if you walk in the street a car will hit you and run you over. That's it. You don't even tell him to walk on walk on the sidewalk.

Don't even tell him what to do. They can figure it all out. Their brains are so much smarter than ours. They learn language. They learn everything from zero. So there's a whole another way of thinking. So the first word first read through you kind of go what really then you start trying the things.

And then they actually work. And I kind of chuckle as I'm saying that because I remember so many women saying to me back in the day when I was teaching primarily just men are from Mars women from Venus even though I still teach those ideas. Women would say you know I don't like what you say by trying it with my with my husband and it works. It's just like you know we have these fixed beliefs about how the world should be. And if your life isn't working then you need to challenge and find another way of thinking about something.

TalkToMeGuy : That sounds exciting. The hunt gather parent.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Yes. Fantastic. Now I highly recommend it and do an interview with her. She's fabulous.

TalkToMeGuy : I had the same experience in school. I was a little ADD or something. I was definitely different. And school just bored me to death. Yeah. I just had no interest.

I it was bad. That's all another show. I need a therapist for that. It's just. You I think it might have been in the same book or I heard you say this or talk about this somewhere. You made a really striking comparison between iPads and giving children cocaine. Would you explain what digital stimulation does to developing brains and what parents could do in the dead.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Yeah. Yeah. I mean for the last 25 years you know my whole after had early stage Parkinson's which I reversed by improving dopamine function in the brain. I'm research dopamine inside and out and children should not be exposed to digital stimulation period. It's stimuli. It literally stimulates high levels of dopamine as if you're an adult and somebody gave you cocaine.

That's why it's so easy. You know parents have these over excited kids. OK. And unruly kids and defiant kids crying kids.

All of those are symptoms of dopamine crash. This is why if you go to a birthday party at least parents used to know this. You don't give them sugar until the end of the party because once you give them sugar.

They go bananas. What happened is sugar gives you this big dopamine rush and then you crash right afterwards. And when you crash your brain doesn't function in a normal peaceful way.

Any emotional distress will come up. The blood sugar goes out of balance. The brain chemicals aren't getting produced and the dopamine biologically what happens is when you're making healthy dopamine levels and you have healthy dopamine function. You're relaxed and you're focused at the same time. Peaceful but focused and energized but peaceful. And you can get excited and whatever that's going to be high dopamine then you'll become a little relaxed after that. There's always a natural up and down. But when you take these stimulants and digital is worse than sugar.

OK. It all stimulates this high level of dopamine in the brain. It gives you a surge of hormones which feels really really good. But then what happens is when when dopamine high spurts of dopamine they make you feel good and then because it's too much it's more than normal. The dopamine receptors begin to close. It's like little flowers.

They shut down. And now the dopamine stimulation that listening to your wife or eating your vegetables. It's nothing. You don't want it is boring. It's distressing.

It doesn't feel good. Because your receptor size close and you have to stay relaxed with no dopamine stimulation for those receptor sites to open back up again. So that's why if you know if you have a big exciting night you're going to need to sleep in more rest more relaxation before you can come back to normal balance.

So yeah high stimulation will close the receptor sites then low stimulation will open them again. You know it used to be your parents you know they just send you out and be in nature. Nature is low stimulation. Just life is kind of boring sitting by the river watching the water go by looking at little animals and you know various little activities and playing games and whatever. With other kids and life is a you know if we look at our child a lot of things we did just boring. Now we're just being stimulated all the time all the time and we don't get that stimulation.

We're bored. Well boredom you have to go through boredom for your receptor sites to open up again. An easy way to understand this this brain function of dopamine is if you look at this bright sunlight your reset your pupils will close. Then suddenly if you go into a room the whole room will be dark. And once you're in the dark room for a while your pupils will open back up again and you can see again. So this is the same function with dopamine. But what happens is when the room is dark we want to go back out and we want that bright stimulation again. So our kids are addicted to high stimulation and therefore they don't have this inner peace. One of the things about a Hunt Gather parent is when a child drops something in the ground you act like it's completely normal. Everything is peaceful and normal and when they get a bump or they get upset about something that cried they'll reach to you. You say nothing. You just hold them in your arms. That's the oxytocin that trains their brain to relax.

You don't say anything. You just go out in nature if you have nature and you just stand there for a few minutes and a child learns their own ability to comfort themselves to come back into balance without someone trying to give them a cookie or someone tell them everything's going to be OK. No just let them find that ability within themselves. We have the natural ability to self correct to come back to ourselves when given the opportunity. But to take your child off of these stimulants they're going to be like a drug addict going off of drugs. You have to go through that period of time. You can slowly start doing it or you can do it with cold turkey either way. You're going to have a child who's going to be crying and demanding and you just act like that's OK. It's normal. You know let's go spend time outside.

Just spend more time in nature doing natural things that you playing games in nature playing card games reading stories that things you can do with your young children. That will help retrain their brain to come back to normal stimulation makes me happy. It's the same idea why we eat dessert after a meal. Dessert gives you a big bump of dopamine. Well if you had a big scoop of ice cream before your meal the vegetables just don't taste as good nor are they interesting. It's a simple way of looking at it.

TalkToMeGuy : I will I have one more comment and then I have questions now that you have a you and I have had all this

John Gray, Ph.D.: one which is you know they're saying can't see their cell phones when they go to school. I think there's a law now going to be passed where they can't even bring them to school. Well you can bring as a flip phone because you want to be in touch with your children because the world is so crazy today. It's not safe. So there should be a way to connect with them but not these phones that have all these these little lights and colors and stimulation and access to the internet. This is something children should not have access to.

TalkToMeGuy : I know some adults I'd like to decorate their phones but that's a different show. Now that you and I have had lots of talking do we have higher levels of oxytocin.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Actually your testosterone levels go up because you got some good ideas and you felt that this was a good show. So that a sense of success. The women listening because I made sure to do validating statements for women which is they need to be heard many to listen. Men should men stop trying to interrupt women. Just when I say that women's oxytocin levels and estrogen levels will start to go up because it's validation of something that women know deep inside they're missing and they need. So the thought that they're feeling not alone and they're supported that will raise their oxytocin their estrogen and lower their stress.

TalkToMeGuy : Okay. Wonderful. Thank you. And now I ask you can people work with you. A and B where would you like people to find out more about how to work with you and more information about your the supplements you have available now in books.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Well every three or four months I do teach at workshop here in Marin County. I've got one coming up July 18th for example. And they're three days they're intensive to help people go through an emotional transformation which is another part of my work. They have some of my content but you can get my content all over the Internet but in the workshops rather than you know 10 hours of lectures from me which I can easily do.

We do processes and people actually transform the the issues that are going on deep deep in the subconscious. So that's the workshops we have classes at my website Marsvenous.com great content with participation exercises. The best most popular one is understanding men it's a women only course and the other one is secrets of great sex.

Which is a fun way of looking at sex couples can look at it just basic good sex education done in a playful fun way understanding how men and women are different. Also we have a place there called contact us. If you contact us if you want coaching or counseling we can we can connect you with the people who can provide that if that's of interest to you. We have a website called Marsvenous coaching.com you can learn how to become a coach and we talk briefly about my protein shakes that I recommend and the minerals and so forth. If you're interested in that as well as other supplements that have been proven herbs that will help balance women's hormones.

They're really really helpful their traditional herbs that help women with producing healthy estrogen without having to take estrogen. All of that information we can provide you with a free coach to guide you in that if you just go to the bottom of the page which is just a contact place. Or if you went to Marsvenous.com forward slash contact. Just say you know what you're interested in we give you different categories of what you're looking for. And if you're looking for the nutritional help will put in your phone number and we'll give you a call or give us your email and we'll send you a message and set up a call so that you can get advice on how you can for men particularly get rid of that belly fat raised testosterone for women how to help balance your hormones. And for us guys over 50 although I'm in my 70s you start losing your muscle mass as a sarcopenia muscle loss how to make sure that you don't lose your muscle.

That's just so important for optimal brain function for energy for motivation so much of what couple old people get tired is they just don't have the muscle mass to generate the energy. So those are some of the things we we offer. Oh one other thing I mentioned is going to come out this year and that's my heart space app and this app actually gives you a counseling session with me. It's I've spent 15 years developing this protocol which you'll get the same benefits of doing a counseling session with me in terms of emotional processing it will help you to process your emotions.

It asks you for questions you answer them and then it will tell you what your emotions are it will tell you what you need to hear it will tell you how you'll feel if you hear that it will give you affirmations. It's amazing thing is taking me 15 years to develop and is almost done. So I'm very happy for that people can learn about that by going to Marsvenous.com when it's ready. Wonderful.

TalkToMeGuy : I'm glad you asked about that I had that as a question but I didn't think we had time. It's good to know that that's happening. That's very exciting.

John Gray, Ph.D.: Oh it's so important you see emotional intelligence. You literally need someone to what I do in counseling is I tell people OK so you're feeling afraid of this and this and this you're feeling disappointed about this and this this this hurts your feelings and you feel regret about that. People don't have a world of understanding of the depth of our emotions and when you can bring your consciousness to the unconscious that's the true transformation.

That's a you know quote that's the whole purpose of personal growth is to make the unconscious conscious and transform it and integrate it and this product this app does it for you.

TalkToMeGuy : Cool. Wonderful. Well John that was the adventure I thought it was going to be. Thank you so much.

John Gray, Ph.D.: It was such a pleasure connecting with you again and I wish you the very best and thanks everybody for listening.

TalkToMeGuy : Thank you. Everybody have a great rest of the week and we'll see you next week. Bye bye. .